Talk:Final Defense at Raynet - Revision history

TienShan0: TienShan0 moved page Talk:Final defense at Raynet to Talk:Final Defense at Raynet: To match the stylistic capitalisation of the image and the naming of this as a battle, using title case.

2019-03-19T13:22:22Z

TienShan0 moved page Talk:Final defense at Raynet to Talk:Final Defense at Raynet: To match the stylistic capitalisation of the image and the naming of this as a battle, using title case.

← Older revision	Revision as of 13:22, 19 March 2019
(No difference)

Valaggar at 12:22, 18 April 2007

2007-04-18T12:22:10Z

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	::# Agree to disagree		::# Agree to disagree
	::Cheers, --[[User:Fyzixfighter\|Fyzixfighter]] 23:10, 17 April 2007 (CEST)		::Cheers, --[[User:Fyzixfighter\|Fyzixfighter]] 23:10, 17 April 2007 (CEST)

			:::#Why? Raynet is a HyperSpace constellation; the "open space" can even be inside a system, since space is still open even with planets. Or the battle may have been in [[Deep Space]].
			:::# Ah, aha. Anyway, who said they couldn't stay a bit further from effective human space, or move there later?
			:::# That was not a homeworld, just a base of operations. And remember that the Mmrnmhrm were imprisoned on Procyon since they didn't have a homeworld - that's the idea.
			:::# Too.
			:::Anyway, there's no evident truth, both should remain on the Ultronomicon. So kind of you to make this change. [[User:Valaggar\|Valaggar]] 14:22, 18 April 2007 (CEST)

Fyzixfighter: comment on my recent edits and bit of reply

2007-04-17T21:10:13Z

comment on my recent edits and bit of reply

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	:Now this does require reading into Hayes' "beyond Raynet" statement a bit (as I mentioned above), putting a significant mental pause after Talana says that "[Diani] didn't make it back," and interpreting "final defense" as referring to the CoreWard Front. But, IMO, it meshes better with the chronology, the likely place of the main Syreen fleet, and the attempt by the Syreen to join the Yehat after Earth fell.		:Now this does require reading into Hayes' "beyond Raynet" statement a bit (as I mentioned above), putting a significant mental pause after Talana says that "[Diani] didn't make it back," and interpreting "final defense" as referring to the CoreWard Front. But, IMO, it meshes better with the chronology, the likely place of the main Syreen fleet, and the attempt by the Syreen to join the Yehat after Earth fell.
	:I think this would be an excellent topic to put up on the forum (if you haven't already), as it requires a rather involved collection and analysis of multiple sources. I'd be interested to see how others put these pieces together. --[[User:Fyzixfighter\|Fyzixfighter]] 04:30, 17 April 2007 (CEST)		:I think this would be an excellent topic to put up on the forum (if you haven't already), as it requires a rather involved collection and analysis of multiple sources. I'd be interested to see how others put these pieces together. --[[User:Fyzixfighter\|Fyzixfighter]] 04:30, 17 April 2007 (CEST)

			::Well, until we can come to a consensus, the best thing to do is not take either intrepretation as fact, stating them both. I've gone through the articles involved and modified them accordingly (I think I got them all).
			::In response to some of your concerns posted on the forums:
			::# Another thing that stands out to me is the "Raynet" and "open space", which to me reads as completely different places. But I imagine we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
			::# Check the original SC2 hyperspace map, Raynet is clearly outside earthling sphere of influence.
			::# We agree, but I've never thought that the Mmrnmhrm were who the Ur-Quan were referring to when they say they've come across this before. They did have an effective homeworld/base of operations on that moon somewhere in the Virginis constellation - which is categorically different than the Syreen case. But it is a possibility.
			::# Agree to disagree
			::Cheers, --[[User:Fyzixfighter\|Fyzixfighter]] 23:10, 17 April 2007 (CEST)

Fyzixfighter: Talk:Last stand at Raynet moved to Talk:Final defense at Raynet: name Talana uses for this event

2007-04-17T03:41:22Z

Talk:Last stand at Raynet moved to Talk:Final defense at Raynet: name Talana uses for this event

← Older revision	Revision as of 03:41, 17 April 2007
(No difference)

Fyzixfighter: reply - sorry it's kind of long

2007-04-17T02:30:47Z

reply - sorry it's kind of long

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:30, 17 April 2007
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	You see, the Ur-Quan defeated only the Syreen at Raynet, so only the Syreen were here. Also, from what Hayes and Talana say, it is implied that the Syreen and the Arilou were caught at Raynet while the Front was still receding from Indi-Mira to beyond Raynet, (the Yehat and the Shofixti had already retreated; the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were defending Rigel; the Earthlings were cut off at Sol from Raynet.), and the Arilou ran away, leaving the Syreen alone.[[User:Valaggar\|Valaggar]] 19:03, 16 April 2007 (CEST)		You see, the Ur-Quan defeated only the Syreen at Raynet, so only the Syreen were here. Also, from what Hayes and Talana say, it is implied that the Syreen and the Arilou were caught at Raynet while the Front was still receding from Indi-Mira to beyond Raynet, (the Yehat and the Shofixti had already retreated; the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were defending Rigel; the Earthlings were cut off at Sol from Raynet.), and the Arilou ran away, leaving the Syreen alone.[[User:Valaggar\|Valaggar]] 19:03, 16 April 2007 (CEST)

			:I don't think it is as evident that only Syreen fought at Raynet. I look at these same quotes, and a few others, and come to a different picture of how the War ended. Granted, I can see why you can interpret the dialog that way, and I don't think my interpretation is perfectly written in stone. So let's start with what we can agree on:
			:#There was a battle called the "final defense at Raynet" at the end of the War (which probably is a better title for the article)
			:#The Syreen Space Patrol fought at this battle
			:The are a number of things that make me think that this wasn't the Syreen's "last stand".
			:#Talana says that her sister "didn't make it back," which seems to imply to me that the main Syreen fleet was not at this final defense at Raynet, but was somewhere else. Also Talana isn't talking about the details of how the War ended - that's the next conversation item - but rather is explaining who she is and how the Syreen ended up at Gaia, so she might be speaking in broad strokes, not necessarily implying any causation or connection with those two sentences.
			:#The main Syreen fleet was likely located in human space:
			:#:Hayes: "The last entrants to the conflict were the Syreen, a race of space gypsies who had escaped the Hierarchy by moving their vast fleet of slow-moving habitats into human space."
			:#The Syreen were defeated after the humans, and after the Ur-Quan pushed through Raynet:
			:#:Talana: "Like the people of Earth, we chose peace. [...] When your people on Earth were defeated, the Alliance just plain fell apart. The Yehat and Shofixti retreated to their native stars and didn't want us to follow. The Arilou, those creepy little weasels, just plain bugged out -- vanished leaving us alone, with nowhere to go, smack in the path of the oncoming Ur-Quan Armada."
			:#:Arilou: "The [Ur-Quan] Armada departs your star system and moves toward the remaining Alliance members ourselves, the Syreen, the Yehat and their adopted Shofixti.The Yehat and Shofixti withdraw to Delta Gorno, but they do not permit the Syreen to follow."
			:#These last quotes also imply that the Syreen were planning on joining the Yehat after Earth fell, which means that they would have to be on the "east-southeastern" side of human space.
			:So here's how I interpret the end of the War happening. The Ur-Quan finally broke the Indi-Mira line, pushing back the Coreward Front. There was probably a running firefight as the Alliance tried to reform up the Coreward Front. The logical last place to possibly do this is Raynet. Once past Raynet, there's no real place away from home territory to draw up a battle line. That's why I think it's significant that Hayes says "beyond Raynet", because the "last stand" of the Coreward Front had to have happened there. We know that the retreating Alliance forces (significantly the Chenjesu) seem to have rallied around Rigel, but by that time an organized front is gone and the Alliance forces are shattered - the Ur-Quan having effectively driven a wedge between the two Alliance power houses, the Chenjesu and the Yehat. The Ur-Quan then decide to outflank the scattered Alliance, heading "west" around Rigel to take out the Chenjesu. Once the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm are conquered, the Ur-quan head for Earth. The Syreen realize that the humans are going to fall and think that they'll regroup with the Yehat and start heading east from human space to seek shelter in Yehat/Shofixti space. But the Yehat will have none of that. The Ur-Quan fleet keeps pushing "east", encountering and capturing the Syreen in open space. After that they continue going "east" encountering the Shofixti - the Ur-Quan have to approach the shofixti from that direction in order for the Yehat to be able to retreat from Delta Gorno to their space safely.
			:Now this does require reading into Hayes' "beyond Raynet" statement a bit (as I mentioned above), putting a significant mental pause after Talana says that "[Diani] didn't make it back," and interpreting "final defense" as referring to the CoreWard Front. But, IMO, it meshes better with the chronology, the likely place of the main Syreen fleet, and the attempt by the Syreen to join the Yehat after Earth fell.
			:I think this would be an excellent topic to put up on the forum (if you haven't already), as it requires a rather involved collection and analysis of multiple sources. I'd be interested to see how others put these pieces together. --[[User:Fyzixfighter\|Fyzixfighter]] 04:30, 17 April 2007 (CEST)

Valaggar at 17:18, 16 April 2007

2007-04-16T17:18:17Z

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	but we fought on anyway."		but we fought on anyway."

	You see, the Ur-Quan defeated only the Syreen at Raynet, so only the Syreen were here. Also, Hayes ~~says~~ that the ~~Ur-Quan had already pushed~~ the ~~Earthlings back BEYOND~~ Raynet~~. And~~ the ~~final stands of~~ the ~~other races were in other places - Delta Gorno~~ and ~~so on. The~~ Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were ~~already defeated~~, and the ~~Shofixti and~~ the ~~Yehat were retreating to their home stars~~. [[User:Valaggar\|Valaggar]] 19:03, 16 April 2007 (CEST)		You see, the Ur-Quan defeated only the Syreen at Raynet, so only the Syreen were here. Also, from what Hayes and Talana say, it is implied that the Syreen and the Arilou were caught at Raynet while the Front was still receding from Indi-Mira to beyond Raynet, (the Yehat and the Shofixti had already retreated; the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were defending Rigel; the Earthlings were cut off at Sol from Raynet.), and the Arilou ran away, leaving the Syreen alone.[[User:Valaggar\|Valaggar]] 19:03, 16 April 2007 (CEST)

Valaggar at 17:03, 16 April 2007

2007-04-16T17:03:04Z

New page

Is is evident that only the Syreen participated in the final defense at Raynet. Here are the relevant quotes:

Talana: "she was part of the final defense at Raynet... she didn't make it back.
When the Ur-Quan caught us in open space, we all thought we were going to die
but then, instead of killing us, the Ur-Quan offered us a choice
we could join the ranks of their combat thralls, or we could be slave-shielded on our homeworld."

Hayes: "Then, in 2134, a dramatic shift in the balance of power took place
[...]
our fleets were pushed back from the Indi-Mira line to beyond Raynet.
Holding Rigel cost grievously in Chenjesu forces and the Ur-Quan, recognizing this weakness
shifted to focus the brunt of their forces on Procyon.
That was the last we heard from the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm.
A few weeks later, waves of ships hit us from all directions.
When Ceres Station, our outpost in the Asteroid belt, fell to the Hierarchy, we knew we were beaten
but we fought on anyway."

You see, the Ur-Quan defeated only the Syreen at Raynet, so only the Syreen were here. Also, Hayes says that the Ur-Quan had already pushed the Earthlings back BEYOND Raynet. And the final stands of the other races were in other places - Delta Gorno and so on. The Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm were already defeated, and the Shofixti and the Yehat were retreating to their home stars. [[User:Valaggar|Valaggar]] 19:03, 16 April 2007 (CEST)