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Revision as of 10:17, 27 December 2007 by Valaggar (talk | contribs) (reply)
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Should we really keep this as a separate article, and not merely add the information contained herein to the relevant definitions at Orz communications? After all, we don't have the slightest idea of what *below* is, much less whether it is a dimension or not. Valaggar 10:36, 8 December 2007 (CET)

Mmm, it's subjective, but I would, I guess just because (to me) *below* represents a big enough mystery to have its own article. --Zeracles 03:38, 25 December 2007 (CET)

Here's the only Orz line where *above* and *below* appear, for thy reference:
You are a *silly* *camper*. I am always Orz.
If I was not Orz, then I would not be, but of course I am Orz.
We are from *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*.
It is the same, but not.
Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*.
Orz does not like Arilou. Arilou are too much trouble.
We can not have parties when Arilou always *jumping in front*.
It makes Orz *frumple* so much.
*Happy campers* not going to *heavy space* *slide* near Chandrasekhar.
Especially not ever!
These are *fat* words. Do you want to play this some more?
However, *outside* appears in numerous contexts; the Orz say:
  • that they "are happy *people energy* from the outside."
  • that they don't want to return to *outside* because it would make them **Frumple**
  • that Humans "cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*."
    • Since *sliding* is interdimensional travel, it seems that *outside* might be a dimension.
    • This view is supported by the fact that the Orz once say that they want to show the *inside* to the Humans (because they're so happy that it's *alliance* time); the Orz also mention, with another occasion, that they will show other *levels* to the Humans after being *connected*, and since *level* means "dimension", it seems that *inside* is a *level*/dimension; we can infer from here that *outside* is also a dimension.
  • Also remember that the Orz were meant to be really *frumple* if the player took them to QuasiSpace, lending even more credence to the interpretation that *outside*=QuasiSpace.
That is, Orz and the Arilou are from the same dimension, *outside* — QuasiSpace. *Above* and *below* might then be either regions of QuasiSpace, ways to experience QuasiSpace (like *slow time* and *quick time* might be for TrueSpace), or some characteristics (for instance, the Arilou are *above* on the political scene of QuasiSpace, while the Orz are *below*, they're scapegoats).
Ergo, *below* isn't really that significant to warrant having a whole article about it, and even if we chose to keep this article, we should probably either make another one named *Above* or rename this one to "*Above* and *below*" (probably the latter option). But we should probably just redirect to Orz communications, as we don't really have that much to say about these two words. Besides, if these two best-fits have their own articles, wouldn't yet other best-fits, such as *slow time* and *quick time*, envy them and make pressures on us to make articles for them as well? We can't make an article about *outside* either, since it's almost certain it means QuasiSpace (we can't redirect to QuasiSpace either, since it's not certain, just almost certain). Valaggar 09:52, 25 December 2007 (CET)

For any following this (just because I have started to inspect the code), the relevant dialogues may be found here (arilou) and here (orz).
I knew that *below* only appeared once. I don't think we can say that *below* isn't significant, as things are not important just because they are referred to a lot, even though in many contexts these two states coexist. We just don't know, and not knowing is what makes it significant as far as arguing for the existence of this article.
I also don't even think it almost certain that *outside*=QuasiSpace, just that *outside* contains QuasiSpace. If we identify QuasiSpace as a dimension, then *outside* may not be a dimension, rather it may describe a class of dimensions or even simply a way of perceiving them (this latter option seems closer to the sort of thing *inside* might be). In this way, *sliding* may be more general amd describe more than just interdimensonal travel (I would change the *slide* item on the Orz communications page to reflect this). We don't know that *levels* are *dimensions*. *Levels* may be more precise or general, indeed, the Arilou imply that something of significance is not precisely the same as a dimension:
We are not from your space, or your... *time*. Some of your more broad thinkers refer to such realms as other dimensions. Though trivialized, this is a suitable metaphor for your intellect.
and whatever this is may not simply be about where something is (this is what a dimension describes), but also about what something is (c.f. They, Them (by the way, I think Them should redirect to They)):
I do not think you can even touch them; you are not quite solid enough.
(solid could be related to *squishy*)
Whatever is more precise, it may have to do with *outside*, *above* and *below*. *Outside* may also not refer to an absolute place or set of places, it may depend on where you are, making it a relative description (*outside* of *outside* could be *inside*, for example).
If we keep this, I agree that it would be fitting to either also have a page for *above* or go for one called *above* and *below*. I wouldn't put *below* into the orz communications page since *below* I think should be distinguished from the other things listed there, as it is more mysterious and potentially sinister. I don't think it's a problem that we don't have much to say about *above* and *below* - these are whole other places we have next to no idea about, but which are apparently significant all the same. *Slow time* and *quick time* don't fit this description.
I'm not writing it, but I wouldn't be hostile to an *outside* article. But this has its problems, so it might even be good to have an article called *outside*, *above* and *below*, where searches for these words respectively redirect to this one (which I think is useful for when we put links to these). Given what I say above about the possible connections between these, this may be a solution.
Just my thoughts of course. I love this stuff (and I think Val's views echo his philosophy). Would anyone else like to *play*? --Zeracles 20:56, 25 December 2007 (CET)

Mmm, yes, true. I myself flirted with a view of dimensions as having two "coordinates" - outsideness and height; thus, the Orz home dimension is *outside* *below*, and QuasiSpace is *outside* *above*. I later discarded them on the grounds that *level* has to mean "dimension", as the Orz name *slow time* *heavy space* (normal TrueSpace) as being a *level* (ABOUT_US_3). But maybe that's not really so clad in stone. The "It is a better *level* for games." in that line can be also interpreted as "It is in a better *level* for games", after all.
Now, back on topic: My point was that, since there's nothing that indicates that *below* is so significant (which, by the way, could also be said about *outside*), it doesn't deserve an article. Maybe we could make an "Orz home dimension" article, though — at least to keep Category:Dimensions exhaustive. And *below* and *outside* would redirect to that. System unit is awaiting further input. Valaggar 14:08, 26 December 2007 (CET)
Processing of Orz dialogue is complete. Report follows:
  • *Space*, *time* and *colors* are many. What we call "dimension" is actually the totality of the entities possessing a given set of one of each of these characteristics (and a *level* is the totality of the entities possessing a given set of all or some of these characteristics, i.e. it's an artificial way of singling out a group of dimensions). *Space* can be *heavy space*, *Pretty Space* etc. (*now space* might mean "the current *space*"). *Time* can be *slow time*, *quick time* etc.. I do not know what variants there are for *colors*, but it seems that *above* or *below* or in *the middle* and *outside* or *inside* or *in between* might constitute *colors* (i.e. sort of "miscellaneous characteristics").
  • *Sliding* is changing outsideness (moving from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*).
  • *Spreading* is changing *space*.
  • *HYUIVBHJHG* is using a *space* that is extremely easy to travel through as a shortcut (like HyperSpace, but much, much better).
  • The word used for changing *time* is never mentioned (it might be that the Arilou do more *time* travel — they even use *time*, and not *space*, to refer to something akin to a dimension — and the Orz do more *sliding*, as "many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course". Since the Taalo make *time jokes*, they're probably proficient at *time* travel as well.
Report end. System unit is awaiting further input regarding the use in the Ultronomicon of the information gleaned by the system unit. Valaggar 18:28, 26 December 2007 (CET)

This is good stuff, Val. A reasonable interpretation. I'll just add my thoughts.
  • I think that as you say, it is a good idea to say what we call dimension. *Space* and *time* are definitely properties which differentiate between them. However, I doubt that *colours* (I don't care if American English is standard here, this is how I'm going to spell it, and it's sulPHur, not sulFur) are in this class. Remember that these best-fits are supposed to be clues, so I would suspect that colours have to do with how one senses these dimensions. Using the fact that things can look different in different coloured light (c.f. rose-coloured glasses), it seems likely that *colours* are different ways of perceiving dimensions, or parts of them. I think this is more in line with: Happy *pieces*! I am *squirting nice colors*!.
  • While *space* and *time* must have to do with dimension, I don't think we can be certain that *outsideness* and *height* do as well. I'm sure at least one of them do, but perhaps one of them is more about perception (my preference for this is *outsideness*). I would say that the relationship between *colour* and *outsideness*/*height* is really uncertain.
  • *Sliding* definitely contains but could be more general than changing *outsideness*.
  • Whatever the truth behind these dimensions, it seems clear that perceptions (*colour*, *smell*) and knowledge are related to it, and I think we should mention this. Particularly how just knowing something, as the Androsynth did, makes one vulnerable. The Arilou also say that ``knowledge transcends reality perimeters" (cue ominous reference to the ultron). Just knowing something may even be equivalent to movement in what we call dimensions (. . . spooky psychic stuff, Falayalaralfali).
And now about *time*. Some evidence about what this could be
from the Orz: *Time* is not one but many.
from the Arilou: We are many places, at many *times*.
This, along with the Arilou's preoccupation with long-term consequences and their mention of ``event strands", suggest that they like to consider dimensions as different times within *time*, where each individual time is the result of events occurring in a different way. Kind of like the Many Worlds Interpretation of QM I suppose. The Arilou's awareness of (and possible influence over) or intrinsic relationship with this may be why they are *above*, as in all-seeing. While this last part is probably too speculative to include in any article, I think the mention of event strands gives us licence to cite this possibility.
Those are just my thoughts on what we could say (my other thoughts are too speculative even for a talk page!), some of it is too speculative. As for how we say this as in what to do with the articles, maybe I'll think a bit more, but anyway we probably need a third opinion on this (Fyzix, PsiPhi, Svdb?). An article called ``Orz home dimension" makes this too specific to the Orz I think. --Zeracles 23:26, 26 December 2007 (CET)

  • *Outsideness* being about perception — the Orz say "We are from the *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*. It is the same, but not. Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*."; it seems to me that "it is same, but not" would not be used to introduce different places with the same perception, but different perceptions of the same place, or a difference in the "Y-axis" of perception, where the abscissa is fixed — no matter which one of the later two interpretations one accepts, *above* and *below* are related to perception.
The whole story about the Androsynth knowing and thus making themselves *smellable* and thus facilitating the Orz's translation from *outside* to what I guess is *in between*... and they're in the process of moving to *inside*, and they need *fun* and *parties* for this... *outsideness* is quite perception-related too, I'd say. So maybe both *outsideness* and *height* are related to perception, after all. So both *outsideness* and *height* are subsets of *color* [I'm keeping this spelling, because Firefox's built-in spel cheker doesn't recognize British English].
And I'd say that *color*/perception refers to reality phase, as the Androsynth used devices that show (notice that they only show — only transfer of information, not matter) places with other reality phases, but the same space... Orz translated through their *slippery places* from *outside* to *in between*, which is perception-related. Also, phase is related to light/color, after all.
So a perception from *outside* would be a detached perception (which, go figure, the Arilou indeed have!), while one from *inside* would be a very involved one (*fun* and *parties* and starting *campers* and whatnot). A perception from *above* would be a "demiurge"/"owner" one (experiments on Humans, *jumping in front* etc.), while one from *below* would be a "devil"/"thief" one (profiting from what others have built).
  • *Sliding* — yes, I think you're right. Although the line "You cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*." seems to imply that *sliding* is limited to changing *outsideness*, there's another line I missed (because I searched for "slide", not "slid"): "Finally we find you, the *happy campers* and the Taalo *playground* for sliding through." Since the Orz use the Taalo *playground* to *spread*, not change *outsideness*, it seems that *sliding* is more general.
  • About the many-worlds interpretation: [You can also link to Wikipedia by using [[wikipedia:Many-worlds interpretation|this gimmick]].] Hmm... something in me doesn't quite like the idea that *time* is so different from the other "traits", but the idea definitely does work... "At different *times*, we explore different easy places. That is our way."
However, *time* can be *slow time* or *quick time*... this reference to speed doesn't quite support the branching-time interpretation... admittedly, one might say that the Arilou refer to event strands as *time*, while the similarly-named Orz best-fit refers to an altogether different thing.
If we reject the many-worlds interpretation, then *time* means the same thing for both species. There are easy places for each one of the ten *times* ("At different *times* [...]", "this place is an easy place... one of ten easy places"), and they're places of *very heavy space* ("You cannot catch *Nnngn*... do not even try. I think you are not quite solid enough."). *Playgrounds* are the opposite — places where *Pretty Space* is somehow favored. After all, *playgrounds* are gravity centers, while *easy places* are seemingly places in the void.
TrueSpace is probably *slow time* *heavy space* ("We are too happy, in this *slow time* *heavy space*) *in between* ("Orz can *dance* very well *in between*") *the middle* ("Better parties in *the middle* for sure."); HyperSpace and QuasiSpace can't be *heavy space*, judging from their emptiness; QuasiSpace is also somewhere *outside* *above*.
[By the way, since these replies are so sizable, I've used horizontal lines to separate them. I hope nobody got hurt! (or *hurt*)] Valaggar 11:17, 27 December 2007 (CET)