Difference between revisions of "Talk:Orz"
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..obsolete (and badly worded ;) ) theories be removed? --[[User:184.108.40.206|220.127.116.11]] 20:34, 22 October 2007 (CEST)
..obsolete (and badly worded ;) ) theories be removed? --[[User:18.104.22.168|22.214.171.124]] 20:34, 22 October 2007 (CEST)
:Not necessarily. Even if the Twin Gods have confirmed the Orz=Them theory, they might decide to change that when they finally get to creating a sequel. Besides, they're still theories that have been supported by a lot of people before that revelation, so they still have a "historical" value. [[User:Valaggar|Valaggar]] 14:
:Not necessarily. Even if the Twin Gods have confirmed the Orz=Them theory, they might decide to change that when they finally get to creating a sequel. Besides, they're still theories that have been supported by a lot of people before that revelation, so they still have a "historical" value. [[User:Valaggar|Valaggar]] 14:, 23 October 2007 (CEST)
Revision as of 12:23, 23 October 2007
It seems to me that *silly* just means 'stupid' to the orz. "I am clear! You are not so silly." Is it just me or have other people noticed this too?
It may not be an accepted theory, but I remember (from some years ago) that Orz always refers to itself a single entity. Would anyone mind if I change all the self references here to singular forms?
- Seems like a good idea. It would make sense to elaborate on this fact in the article too. Also, it may be possible that there are other entities of its kind. - SvdB 23:02, 5 Oct 2004 (CEST)
It is not true that Orz always refer to themselves/itself as a single entity: "Who are you? You are not Orz We are Orz! Orz are happy *people energy* from the outside." I don't object to referring to Orz in singular in the article, I'm just pointing out that they don't always refer to themselves singularly. Although I haven't seen them refer to themselves as "the Orz" (like a species), only "Orz" (like a name for a person).
I'd say that only one thing is really known about Orz: it's very difficult to understand them :) And this music is totally bonkers! --Jacius 03:50, 25 Oct 2004 (CEST)
Looking again, it seems the Orz only occasionaly refer to themselves in the singular (ie, "Orz is go with you same place for *party*"), or at least not very often at all. Although, they refer to lots of other singular things in the plural... --Jacius 04:45, 25 Oct 2004 (CEST)
Not wanting to throw a new spanner in all of this or anything, but one of the quotes made me a little curious; "Aha! I am told other Orz cousins you are connected for camping! I am so right!" I'm kind of intrigued by this. If the Orz are all one entity, who are the "cousins"? Other IDF races? Luminar 3:02, 22 Feb 2006 (CEST)
Whoever 126.96.36.199 is, that last edit for Orz was awesome! Much clearer. It's they way I was going to make it if I had had the time.
Mmrnmhrm 17:04, 7 Oct 2004 (CEST)
I moved the Evidence section to my own User page.
I added a bit about how Orz enjoy TrueSpace more than where they came from. My evidence for this is on my User page. (Conversations 1 and 2) --Jacius 04:45, 25 Oct 2004 (CEST)
The Orz only occasionally refer to "Orz" in the third person singular. Moreover, the accepted usage in *all the rest* of the game is to call the Orz "the Orz" and refer to them in the plural. Since we're not writing the whole article in Orzese, there's no point in using an occasional Orzese usage exclusively for the Orz, and it's really a pretty annoying way to write. Even though I accept the "hivemind" theories tentatively, I still feel like the fact that the Orz *appear* as a race of separate life forms means we should do what the other characters in the game do and call them "the Orz". I also think that the most interesting explanations go beyond the naive idea of a hivemind -- that there's one individual Orz whose mind works the way an individual Human mind works, and that it manipulates the Orz bodies as puppets. I think it's more interesting to think that the individual Orz somehow *are* equivalent to individual Humans, only all jacked in to some higher-level being we Human individuals can't imagine (the way we're made of lots and lots of individual cells that all work together in a way an amoeba couldn't imagine, rather than really being one single cell that controls a lot of other cells.)
Look, people. This is a wiki, not a discussion forum. If you want to add something, integrate it into the existing article or if necessary do a full rewrite of the article. But don't just drop in your own comments in a conversational style, as comments. We *don't have* threaded posting here; can you imagine what a royal mess each article would look like if everyone just posted all the comments they had on that topic there separately? If you must do that the proper place for it is these talk pages, but even here it should be at a minimum -- there are plenty of actual bulletin boards and forums and such for this kind of discussion.
This entire theories section is a mess. I'll try to clean it up a bit. Btw, judging by the IP number, this "people" is actually one person, on whom you commented in the Juffo-Wup article before. Yeah, I know, it can be annoying when people refuse to create an account. -- SvdB 16:56, 31 Mar 2005 (CEST)
The Orz are the Androsynth
By a conversation with the Arilou it's achieved that actually the Orz were Androsynth in the past: "They have names, but you do not know them. They are blind to your presence, unless you show yourself. The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them. There are no Androsynth now, only Orz." Zoltan
- I suppose assimilation could be one of the reasons for the Androsynth's disappearance, as opposed to consumption or disintegration. This could possibly apply to the Taalo too, if we knew how long a *piece* is to humans. But whereas the Androsynth brought the Orz to us, the Taalo might have accidentally brought themselves to the Orz. (As a friendly aside, an easy way to do a signature is to type four tilde(~) at the end of your post) Luminar 16:57, 5 March 2006 (CET)
The Orz are "them" (edit of April 21)
I was responsible for the edit claiming that the Orz were confirmed as "them," based on this bit from the October 18 chat:
<LordR-man> Fwiffo- What really happened to the Androsynth in sc2?
<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)
It's pretty clear to me that this is saying that the Orz are how we perceive the "fingers" of the entity that snagged the Androsynth, i.e. the Orz are "them." What do you think it means? Peejaybee 04:44, 25 April 2006 (CEST)
What I think is irrelevant. What's only relevant is what is said. "Them/They" does not necessarilly refer to "whoever snagged the Androsynth". These are the phrases that refer to "Them":
- There are parasites. Creatures who dwell Beyond. They have names, but you do not know them. They would like to find you but they are blind to your presence... unless you show yourselves.
- They cannot see you now. They cannot smell you.
That's all that is said about them. These sentences are mentioned in close proximity to sentences about the Orz ("The Androsynth showed themselves, and something noticed them. There are no more Androsynth now. Only Orz."), but it does not actually say that they are the same. In fact, it reads to me like TFB have taken care *not* to say that.
The question is not whether "whoever snagged the Androsynth" is the "Orz" — the chat was unambigous about that — but whether They are "whoever snagged the Androsynth", which is the as the question whether They are the Orz. And that's what this whole section of the article is about. — SvdB 11:52, 25 April 2006 (CEST)
- I agree with SvdB on this one. If anything, TFB's comments would belong on the next section "Orz killed the Androsynth". Also, there is one other mention of a "Them", from the reports for the Androsynth ruins:
- ...HE SAID THAT NO ONE COULD EVER KNOW WHAT HE HAD LEARNED. THAT JUST KNOWING WAS ENOUGH TO ALERT `THEM'
- HE KEPT TALKING ABOUT `THEM', CRAZY STUFF, SIR, ABOUT HOW `THEY' COULD SEE HIM NOW, AND `THEY' WERE MOVING TOWARD HIM. THEN BUKOWSKI STARTED THRASHING AROUND THE ROOM, SCREAMING THAT HE HAD TO DESTROY EVERYTHING BEFORE `THEY' SAW US TOO.
- This still doesn't claim that "They" killed the Androsynth, but is very similar to the Arilou's comments previously mentioned. --Fyzixfighter 17:13, 25 April 2006 (CEST)
Oh right, that is the real source of "Them". The Bukowski Them don't even have to be the Arilou Them. — SvdB 09:37, 26 April 2006 (CEST)
- Any likelyness that the "Them" and the spathi "Ultimate Evil" are the same? --Keybounce 06:09, 12 May 2006 (CEST)
- There are no clues that point to that. In fact, the "Ultimate Evil" sounds like the Spathi version of the bogeyman. There's no evidence that there actually exists such a thing. — SvdB 17:25, 13 May 2006 (CEST)
Four-Demensional Orz / Flatland
The Orz may be an allusion to Edwin A. Abbot's Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions, which features the adventures of a two-dimensional (a square) being living in a two dimensional world who is pulled into our three-dimensional "Spaceland". Imagine letting your fingers dangle in a pool of water. A two-dimensional being who lived in the surface of the water would be unaware of the space below or above, and would percive your fingers as circles or *bubbles* inside his two-dimensional space. The Orz may be similar - a four-dimensional being pushing its *fingers* through our three-dimensional space. Our three-space would have other three-spaces adjacent to it (possibly including hyperspace and quasispace) in a larger four-space, both *above* and *below*, the same as the surface of a pool of water has air above, and water below.
This would explain many of the things that both the Arilou and the Orz say. Even the Orz aquatic nature could be explained by the fact that they come from *below*.
- Very interesting thoughts. I had never that to compare the Orz situation to Flatland. I'm going to have to pull it out again and reread it, especially the square's questions to the sphere of additional dimensions, to see how much similarity there is. Though I do disagree with it being an explanation of their aquatic nature - this would seem to be stretching your analogy just a bit too much. All analogy limps eventually. But other than that, interesting find. --Fyzixfighter 03:39, 14 June 2006 (CEST)
- Actually, now that I think about it, the bit about the pool of water might have been from some other text about multidemensionality that happened to reference Flatland. But I think for anyone who's familiar with Flatland and with the things the Orz say in Star Control II, it's pretty indisputable that they're a four dimensional being. Perhaps some of the contradictions with using Orz in both singular and plural could indicate that there is more than one four dimensional Orz, and any given group of *Orz* in our dimension could either be from a single 4D Orz or from multiple 4D Orz.
Taalo and Orz
Now here's one that I've never heard before. Now most of the others I've heard at various times on the discussion boards, but has this one ever come up? Or is this one person trying to put out their own personal ideas? I really just want to remove the whole thing since it was kind of based on the fact that the Taalo would be vindicative against the Ur-Quan - a total falsehood based on our knowledge of the Taalo - they didn't even fight back when the Ur-Quan exterminated them! But a lot can happen to a species in three Drahn, so maybe... The anon also wrote that the theory was based on some mysterious statements the Orz make about being in contact with the Taalo, the interpretation of which is still up in the air. Finally, the Orz refer repeatedly to the Taalo, but never in a way that would make it seem IMHO that they are somehow related/connected. I don't mind keeping the Orz=infected Androsynth theory - I think there's a lot more evidence and discussion on that. But Orz and Taalo - that seems way too out there. OK, I'm done with my portable soapbox, here's a dollar, can I get my 98 cents in change now. --Fyzixfighter 09:15, 16 September 2006 (CEST)
I was actually thinking the same thing, even before you wrote this here. This theory is really based on nothing. You could just as easilly say that the Orz are the puppets of the Arilou, or of the Androsynth, or even of the Precursors. Now if this theory was one that a lot of people were going for, then I'd agree that it could be here based on that, but this theory has never come up before. So I've removed the entire section. I find the "infected Androsynth" theory almost as unsubstantiated, though there is at least the simultaneous disappearance of the Androsynth and appearance of the Orz, and one person has suggested this theory before (unless the anonymous author is in fact the same person, Art). — SvdB 17:38, 17 September 2006 (CEST)
- Thanks for deleting that. I've tried to trim the "infection theory" to be more specific about the evidence usually taken in support of it. I have to admit some personal bias for wanting to keep it in since it's a theory that I entertained when I first played the game, based mainly on the Arilou comment about "Them". But I've also actually heard this from more than one person on the discussion boards and in live conversations with friends that have played sc2, so hopefully it's not too much in the realm of personal fan-fabrication. --Fyzixfighter 22:10, 17 September 2006 (CEST)
Query: If *above* equals Quasispace,then *below* equals subspace. Daktaklakpak 20:47, 22 February 2007 (CET)
- Well, what do you mean by subspace? The manual consistently calls Hyperspace an "adjacent parallel dimension" to TrueSpace, and some of the in-game terms seem to indicate that HyperSpace is "above" TrueSpace. The Arilou also say that QuasiSpace is "adjacent" to HyperSpace. From the Androsynth research, the difference between all these branes/hyperplanes is their reality phase. So one might assume that other dimensions (eg HyperSpace, QuasiSpace, *below*) could be ordered according to the relative phase difference from TrueSpace. The *above* vs *below* would seem to indicate that TrueSpace has a reality phase somewhere between that of QuasiSpace and the home dimension of the Orz. The canon never uses the phrase subspace, and Star Trek uses the phrase more like SC's idea of Hyperspace, or all the other dimensions in general. IMHO, technobabble is not cross-series compatible, so the question is ill-posed - it's like comparing apples and oranges. But again, it depends on what you mean by subspace. --Fyzixfighter 23:09, 22 February 2007 (CET)
Edit 07:38, 1 May 2007 by Fyzixfighter
You moved the theories on the cities' destruction to Eta Vulpeculae II. Why? Theories related to Orz and the Androsynth's disappearance should be kept here. I know that those theories are not exactly related to Orz, but, again, it's better to keep them here, since they're directly related to what the Theories about Orz say.
Also, why remove "and probably Bukowski" while referring to "Them"? The lander report says that "<<They>> are moving towards [Bukowski]"; it may be simple madness, but it's a big enough possibility to be mentioned here. After all, "They" are not introduced in the section that deals with the logs in the Androsynth computer, but in Bukowski's ramblings. Valaggar 12:36, 1 May 2007 (CEST)
- Mainly because that is the planet where these cities are located. The theories are directly about those cities, not necessarily about the Orz. Only some of those theories deal with the Orz. If you look at the theories on this page (the Orz page), all of them relate to the Orz directly. A link under the theories section from here to the section on the planet page may be appropriate. As for the Bukowski comment, I apologize, it was a small oversight - fixing it now... --Fyzixfighter 17:44, 1 May 2007 (CEST)
Fish=projection of Orz; Orz=projection of Them
Do you think we can say that the fish/*fingers* we see are a projection of Orz, who in turn is a projection of Them, without falling into speculation? I mean, it would be good to say it aloud and clear if it's not ambiguous.
For reference, I have collected here the respective quotes:
- <+PR3> The Orz is part of Them, the projection of Them into TrueSpace.
- <Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)
and from the Orz themselves:
- That is *funny*. You think you *see* Orz but Orz are not *light reflections*.
- Maybe you think Orz are *many bubbles* too. It is such a joke.
- Orz are not *many bubbles* like *campers*. Orz are just Orz.
- I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers*.
- My *fingers* reach through into *heavy space* and you *see* *Orz bubbles*
- but it is really *fingers*.
- Maybe you do not even *smell*? That is sad.
- *Smelling* *pretty colors* is the best *game*.
Valaggar 16:56, 14 June 2007 (CEST)
- I've always interpreted those statements to mean that the Orz (fish-people thingies) are the projection (*fingers*) of the "Them". IMO that's the simplest, and face-value interpretation of the TFB statements, which can line up with the Orz comments. I think the confusing part (and maybe this is the quote that is making you speculate this three-tiered type relationship) is the "I am Orz. I am one with man *fingers*." I'd take the 1st-person pronouns to refer to the "Them" entity, and what we usually call Orz (the individuals) are more properly referred to as Orz bubbles or fingers. So it's a bit of a semantics game unfortunately. Let me try another analogy (that may or may not work), if I play chess, I'll say that I'm white (or black) and each of my pieces are also white (or black), similar to how the entity says "I am Orz", which is clarified with the "I am one with many *fingers*" to indicate the relationship between it and the many Orz/pieces/fingers we see. Yeah, not the best analogy, but the best I can think of on the fly. The problem with your three-tiered approach for me is that it contradicts those TFB statements, while interpreting the Orz dialog in a very specific, but hardly singular way. Since Orz langauge is slightly convoluted, I'd rather take TFB statements at face-value, and see if it matches up with a reasonable interpretation of the Orz dialog. --Fyzixfighter 17:38, 14 June 2007 (CEST)
- If Orz (singular) equates to "Them", then how do you explain "The Orz is part of Them, the projection of Them into TrueSpace" (i.e. the statement refers to Orz as a singular entity, not as the *fingers*)?
- The 1998 quote is ambiguous, as you don't know if "the Orz" is singular or plural.
- Merging these two IRC quotes, the *fingers* are projections of the singular Orz, which is in turn a projection of Them (more specifically, Their projection into TrueSpace); the Androsynth were snagged by either by Them with the aid of Orz (singular) or just by Orz, without "orders from a higher power".
- The Orz quote doesn't say anything more than the 1998 IRC chat (but it is more convoluted, as you said).
- -As to "projection into TrueSpace", it also means that even the Orz (singular) exists only in TrueSpace; "Them" met by Bukowski are not Orz, but Them in their highest tier (at least the highest tier known by us, maybe even "Them" are a projection).
- Though there may be something I'm missing. Valaggar 19:10, 14 June 2007 (CEST)
- Sorry, let me try to be a bit clearer. It appears that the word Orz could have a few meanings: the fish-thingies we see as Orz, and the overall race, and the Them entity whose fingers they are (based on the Orz 1st person pronouns). Notice <fwiffo>'s comment "In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)" which I interpret to mean that the Orz (fish-thingies) are the fingers. The fact that PR3 uses is could be simply referring to the Orz race as a whole (still kind of awkward english), but also be related to the fact that the Orz are something of a hivemind, and so really only one individual entity, and english lacks the correct verb forms (reminds me of H2G2 discussion of verb tenses for time-travellers) to accurately describe this relationship - "You must remember that we are tied to a language which makes up for in obscurity what it lacks in style." So to sum up: The Orz is the part of Them that is projected into TrueSpace, and we perceive this projection (or fingers - notice the plural) as the Orz (which I take to mean the fish-thingies). I don't really see the need for a double projection idea, as a single projection idea adequately explains and squares with all the statements imo, and multiple projections seems like epicenters within epicenters, makes too many unwarranted assumptions (occam's razor again), and reads too much into ambiguous verb forms; we can't say this double projection idea without falling into speculation. --Fyzixfighter 20:24, 14 June 2007 (CEST)
- It's rather about the more interesting idea than the simpler one, in this case, so Occam's Razor is not the best argument; but you're right, it is speculative enough... Orz may be just the totality of TrueSpace *fingers* of Them, or have a conscience of its/his own (though since it is strange to say that a "race" is "a" projection, it's rather the latter, in my opinion). However, as there are only two interpretations, I think they would make it as sub-theories/corollaries for "The Orz are Them" theory. Valaggar 21:01, 14 June 2007 (CEST)
..obsolete (and badly worded ;) ) theories be removed? --188.8.131.52 20:34, 22 October 2007 (CEST)
- Not necessarily. Even if the Twin Gods have confirmed the Orz=Them theory, they might decide to change that when they finally get to creating a sequel. Besides, they're still theories that have been supported by a lot of people before that revelation, so they still have a "historical" value. Though, I think that the "Orz seek to take advantage of indigenous races in some undefined way" "theory" ought to be removed - it's way too vague and almost a truism. Valaggar 14:23, 23 October 2007 (CEST)