Talk:Sentient Milieu

Did the Faz actually join just 2,000 years ago, or is that suppose to say 20,000?

From the resource guide:

The Faz joined the Sentient Milieu several centuries before the Ur-Quan, about 2,000 years ago. Like the Ur-Quan and the other Milieu races, the Faz fell under the psychic compulsion of the Dnyarri and for over 2,000 years served their masters every perverted wish.

I do agree that there's some inconsistency here. -- SvdB 20:02, 8 Oct 2004 (CEST)

That would imply that the Dnyarri fell in the early years of the 1st century, which we know isn't true. Hmmm. Certainties:

1. The Dnyarri were discovered by the Ur-Quan over 20,000 years ago
2. The Ur-Quan joined before they discovered the Dnyarri
3. The Faz joined before the Ur-Quan

Perhaps the 2,000 is meant to be "years before the Ur-Quan joined" so 22,000 BC? Or maybe they just forgot a zero.

Mmrnmhrm 20:23, 8 Oct 2004 (CEST)

Can someone provide a reference for the "eleven members" quote. It's not in the conversation files of UQM nor in the voice files of the 3DO version. Maybe it's in the original PC version? --Fyzixfighter 02:31, 28 December 2005 (CET)

Interesting... it's indeed just in the PC version.

— SvdB 10:45, 28 December 2005 (CET)

Now that's really weird, since I pulled it out of the conversation files for version 0.3 of UQM! It was OK_BUY_HISTORY_4 in the melnorme conversations -- Death 999

Thanks for the confirmation. I no longer have version 0.3 on my computer and the original PC version has been inoperable for some time. We'll should probably include the source and include a few of the other conversation comments that seem to imply a larger Milieu... --Fyzixfighter 23:23, 28 December 2005 (CET)

The uqm subtitles came from the PC version, but have since then be modified to match the 3DO speech. — SvdB 08:35, 29 December 2005 (CET)

11 races

Shouldn't the "11 races" (in the Melnorme account) should be considered an inconsistency? The Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za refer to them as five races (the remaining five races, i.e. after the Taalo were forced to fall back to *Pretty Space*, so 7 races total, i.e. with the Ur-Quan and the Taalo included). It makes no sense that the same phrasing is used when introducing all races (with the minor races) and when introducing only the major races. Valaggar 13:31, 17 June 2007 (CEST)

It might be, that the other four races are non-sentient milieu (as opposed to sentient milieu). Some kind of cattle of great importance, perhaps? Milieu is the whole of sentient and nonsentient milieu members together and since "the cattle" (could almost put the Orz asterisks here ;)) are not of great importance when it comes to the decision-making process of the Milieu, it's easy just forgetting their existence while talking - at least if you are really evil and cynical. So, in some situations "milieu" could be a short form of "noteworthy milieu" (in other words: sentient milieu). Dakkus 18:07, 08 December 2007 (CEST)

Linking to Standard HyperSpace distance unit

Since the HSdu page is also about the conversion factor from HSdu to light-years and the other way around, shouldn't that wikilink from "light-years" be re-put, for readers' sake (so that they know what's going on with those light-years)? Or should we make another article about light-years? Valaggar 08:42, 20 January 2008 (CET)

First, we should not make an article about light-years, for similar reasons why we chose not to have a MASERs article. Additionally, we have no indication that the conversion from LY to HSdu is correct or that it's applicable to this description. I think it's fine to discuss the LY-HSdu relationship on that page, but given the number and nature of the assumptions that go into that argument, I feel that it is unwise to wlink to HSdu from here. --Fyzixfighter 23:16, 20 January 2008 (CET)

As long as it is made clear in the HSdu article that the conversion is speculative, I don't think we should shy away from linking, though we should probably not link directly, but add a "(see here)" instead. The speculation still remains there, no matter how one got to that article, by using the search box or a wikilink. Valaggar 16:02, 21 January 2008 (CET)

How about putting the link in a footnote? There we could caution the reader. --Zeracles 18:46, 22 January 2008 (CET)

The link is still too much of a non-sequitur to me. You say that we need so the readers know what's going on with those light-years - well, what exactly is going on with those light-years? They're light-years, the distant light travels in a year. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see the relevance of why is it important to link the readers to HSdu? It's like linking every occurrence of "year" or "millenium" or "decade" to Source so readers know what's going with those "years". As the description of the Milieu stand right now, the link (even in a footnote) is so tangential to the rest of the article as to be trivial. I think it's absolutely fine to discuss the 500 LY of the Sentient Milieu on the HSdu page, but I don't see the relevance here. --Fyzixfighter 03:30, 26 January 2008 (CET)

We're not in the same situation as linking "year"/"millennium"/"decade" to Source. In that case, years/millennia/decades are the standard units of measurement, while Drahns and Drahnasa are non-standard. In our case, HSdu is the standard unit of measurement, while light-years are non-standard.

Still, maybe a change of wording in the footnote is in order. How about 'It is unknown whether "500 light-years" refers to the distance in TrueSpace or in HyperSpace. For the latter case, see here for a potential conversion factor.'? Valaggar 09:51, 26 January 2008 (CET)

I thought we were mentioning this so that the reader would have a rough idea what the areal extent of the sentient milieu might have been in comparison with the starmap. Perhaps it would seem less non sequitur if the footnote was modified to include this extrapolation, stressing that this is tentative. --Zeracles 17:55, 26 January 2008 (CET)

I had a feeling that that might be the reason. It's a much more valid reason than the standard argument - both units have about equal mentions in the canon, and IMO the fact that the starmap coordinates may be based on HSdu is balanced by the common realworld usage of LY so neither units dominates based on that line of thought. I still think it is somewhat unnecessary, but I think it could be worked into the article without using a footnote if presented in that context you mention Zeracles. It still feels a little crufty and on the edge of fan speculation and with a dash of article sprawl, but I think I can live with something along those lines. What I do like about that reason is that it shifts the focus of the inclusion, from "what's going on with those light-years" to "how big the Milieu was in comparison to the game world/starmap" - a subtle but important shift to the subject of the article, which removes the most of non-sequiturishness that was bothering me (and had the potential to distract and confuse other readers). --Fyzixfighter 19:25, 26 January 2008 (CET)