Talk:Utwig

I remember hearing something from these guys about in their early days, they and some race called the Chimt rose from the swamps on Fahz, and the Chimt's tendrils made the veils fall, whatever that entails. Perhaps these should be mentioned, or at least the Chimt have some sort of mention here?

I agree, this article can be expanded, I think it's somewhere on my mental list of things to do. There's a lot more information that could be included about the Utwig history and culture that needs to go here. If no one gets to it soon, feel free to go at it. --Fyzixfighter 19:38, 16 February 2006 (CET)

Alright, i'll have a shot at it now. I'm the same guy BTW, I just felt it was only proper to register. --Luminar, 17 February 2006

Nice work on the Utwig history section. Much better than anything I could have done. I hope you don't mind the edits I made to it - if you've got questions on any of those edits, feel free to ask. One piece that I removed but I'm curious about is you said the bomb was found on Delta Aquarii. I don't recall a reference for this, but maybe I missed it. Do you remember where you got this comment from? --Fyzixfighter 01:49, 18 February 2006 (CET)

Gah, is that the wrong system? I thought it was in Aquarii along with Fahz.. Anyhow, I got interrupted and then sidetracked and then.. sorrrt of kind of fell asleep >_>" So i'm gonna have another stab at the article now - and no, I don't mind changes at all =) --Luminar, 18 February 2006

There, I think i'm just about done now, unless you can think of anythin else that needs to go in --Luminar, 18 February 2006

The story of the Chimt may have been influenced by the story of the Garden of Eden.

"It all began when the Chimt rose from the Murky Bog and the Utwig emerged as well." <-> animals and humans were created.

"Meanwhile, the tendrils of the Chimt infiltrated the vast sky canopies of Fahz and then the veils fell!" <-> The serpent messed with the minds of the first humans.

"Suddenly, the Utwig were stunned by a collective realization!" <-> Realisation after eating from the tree of wisdom.

"All immediately and urgently donned veils of every description!" <-> The humans felt they needed to cover themselves.

— SvdB 14:54, 19 February 2006 (CET)

moving chimt section to its own article

I've been perusing the wanted pages list and noticed that one of them is for Chimt. In all honesty, the section Utwig#Who are the Chimt does a pretty good summation of what we know and imho could be moved over to its own page, maybe with a little bit of tweaking. It would be short article, but would allow for easy access if someone types in Chimt since we can't redirect to sections of an article. Thoughts? --Fyzixfighter 08:01, 10 February 2007 (CET)

Oh, frell it. I know it hasn't been too long since the post above, but the more I think about it, the more I like it...so I'm just going to do it. What's the worst that could happen, someone revert me and tell me I'm wrong? I think I can live with that. --Fyzixfighter 00:07, 11 February 2007 (CET)

Masks

Query: Identify location of images of Utwig masks. Directive: Transfer to this article. Daktaklakpak 19:26, 16 February 2007 (CET)

I don't believe we have images of any of the masks except the "mask of Ultimate Embarrassment and Shame" (the one all Utwig captains wear during the game), since all the other masks were destroyed when the Ultron broke:

All Utwig immediately donned the mask of Ultimate Embarrassment and Shame with a vow to wear it forever! Bonfires all over Fahz consumed all but this mask; no other mask was spared!

Most of the other utiwg dialog that talks about the other masks seems to back this up. There is one bit of dialog that doesn't fit with this though:

We have returned from a conflict of a grand scale with our fleet battered but our masks of Valor and Derring-Do fitting snugly!

but, imho, this is likely just be an idiomatic phrase. --Fyzixfighter 22:17, 16 February 2007 (CET)

Query: After Ultron repair Utwig masks remade. Directive: Affirim or negate. Daktaklakpak 01:58, 17 February 2007 (CET)

Eventually yes, and if you believe the ending credits, that was to happen two days after the end of the game. I've gone through most of the utwig dialog and can't find any reference to them actually wearing anything else. Instead, the utwig captains make references to wanting to don the appropriate masks but are unable (presumeably b/c they were all destroyed). Additionally, the return of the Ultron precipitates a mask etiquette reform/re-adjustment, likely further delaying a return to mask-normalcy. Of course, I might have missed something, so do you have reason to believe otherwise? --Fyzixfighter 02:25, 17 February 2007 (CET)

Reply: SC3 Utwig wear mask of Determined Colenization in Support of Galatic Integrity. Observation: SC3 not considered canon. Frustration: AAAAAAARRRRRRGH! *Floats around in circles* Daktaklakpak 03:27, 17 February 2007 (CET)

I this case, I'm with Dak here. While SC3 isn't usually considered canonical, why wouldn't the Utwig have a Mask of Determined Colonization in Support of Galactic Integrity, or something to that effect? I seem to remember the Mask of Steely Determination in there as well, which is a far more logical mask to see exist in Utwig culture. Gaeamil 05:18, 13 March 2007 (MST)

TFB decides what's part of their universe. It's not a matter of whether something would make sense in the SC2 universe. SC3 material is not regarded any more canon than fan fiction is. — SvdB 17:01, 14 March 2007 (CET)

alright. I was mostly seeing if Dak's frustration could be alleviated a touch, but I guess accuracy is far more important. Sorry, Dak! Gaeamil 14:12, 19 March 2007 (MST)

Ultimate and Universal

Alright Val, before we get into a total edit war - I thought I had come up with a reasonable compromise, but your recent edit totally destroyed any semblance of compromise - here are the relevant statements (PC version, I don't think it changes much in 3DO/UQM):

"The Universal"

• The Ultron was the only thing which assured total and complete meaning of life for you and me. It was Universal; I'm sure that you are also aware of this if only in legend!
• It assured total and complete meaning of life for All -- the Universal!

"The Ultimate"

• The Ultron moans and hums! Matters of significance are being relayed to our brains. It has been so long since we communicated with the Ultimate in such a manner but slowly, the truth is revealed!!...
• Hmm... a reasonable request. Give us a second while we consult the Ultimate. The Ultron confirms the evidence of our ocularities

Now, IMO, there is no clear statement saying the Ultron is the Ultimate/Universal, though I can see how that interpretation is taken from these statements. The other interpretation (the one that you took completely out of my compromise phrasing) is that the Ultimate/Universal is what the Ultron allows access to. Since maybe you're not seeing how I get this interpretation, I'll explain it here. For the Universal statements, it's not clear what "the Universal" refers back to, it could be the Ultron (your interpretation) or the total and complete meaning of life for All, ie the universal knowledge (my interpretation). Also, for the Ultimate phrases, it's telling IMO that they don't use the word "Ultron" even though they use it immediately before or after, which leads me to believe that the two aren't quite synonomous and makes me interpret the Ultimate to be, again, that universal knowledge, that Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything (42!). Does this make sense? Now I know you invoked the idea of hypostasis, but like I said, I'm a nontrinitarian christian, so I've never had to deal with that philosophy/idea to understand God. Maybe it is similar, but for me, this alternative interpretation draws a distinct line between the Ultron device and the Universal Knowledge the Ultron allows access to. Lacking a definitive statement (and comments from others), both interpretations should be present - though maybe this discussion/interpretations should be explained over on the Ultron page. The paragraph in question was originally intended to demonstrate the Utwig obsession with destiny, and this is getting a wee bit far afield of that topic so maybe after a bit of thought I might go down that road. But in the meantime, I'm reinstating a form of the compromise language. If you're going to tweak, fine, but please leave the compromise in instead of totally removing the interpretation you don't agree with/understand. Thanks. --Fyzixfighter 09:06, 20 June 2007 (CEST)

Ah, so that was a compromise... I think I didn't get it. Anyway, about the quotes: In the 3DO version the first "The Universal" quote is more clear:

The Ultron was not only the thing which assures total and complete meaning of life for you and I

it is Universal; I'm sure that you too are aware of this thing if only in legend!

It granted us all limitless power and knowledge.

It has been since, well, rendered inoperative.

Even the DOS quote doesn't seem so ambiguous, since "It" (in "It was Universal") can't replace "total and complete meaning of life", as in such a case "this thing" is rather used (in cases when the object you replace is the last object you mentioned).

The Ultimate, however, is ambiguous, indeed; it may refer to the destiny (personified), for example. Though it doesn't make sense to introduce new entities when the old ones will do (Occam's Razor again, this time by my side!). You could use my argument (that in this case the most interesting interpretation should prevail, not the simplest one), but it just doesn't seem likely that PR3/FF thought of the word "the Ultimate" as a name for destiny rather than the Ultron. Doesn't seem. Though... I don't know... Valaggar 13:45, 20 June 2007 (CEST)

Utwig Importance

Is it not possible that the Ultron, being the Appendages of Dawn, actually does give the Utwig a sight beyond sight into all things important? With that said, is it not possible that the Utwig are not exaggerating their galactic importance, but have actually become very important due to their possession of the Ultron?

This is mere speculation, but one might even go as far as to say that the Ultron allowed itself to be dropped and broken, as the Captain's journey to find the parts to repair the Ultron brought several other things into motion and allowed the Captain to gain the trust of the Supox and Utwig, therefore gaining access to the bomb that would, after modification, destroy the Sa Matra, as well as the combined fleets delaying the Kohr-Ah for an entire year.

Just some ideas. --24.117.122.78 19:47, 4 July 2007 (CEST)

1. The Utwig are emo, and emo people always say that they are very important, but that nobody pays them any attention.

2. I've edited now to make it clearer - I was talking about the Bomb too. Valaggar 09:31, 5 July 2007 (CEST)

You're not providing anything to back up your claims. All sources on the bomb state that the bomb is significantly powerful, and the Starbase Commander advises you to perform any experiments with the bomb several AU away from the station. That's astronomical units, the distance from the Earth to the center of the sun. This is an extremely powerful bomb and I find it very likely that the Utwig were not exaggerating its destructive potential at all. The only thing that possibly stood a chance against it was a Precursor battle platform, a warship. The Utwig bomb very well might have destroyed it on its own, but the Chmmr didn't want to take any chances and grossly amplified the power of the bomb..

Also, stating that the Utwig are "emo" and that "emo people always say..." is an awful generalization and is highly circumstantial. I find the Utwig to be rather big-headed about their possession of the Ultron and their insight into things through it, but they've shown they can back up their claims. --24.117.122.78 18:12, 5 July 2007 (CEST)

(re emo) I was in a bad mood over the Utwig voice when I stated that they're emo; in anger, I said something which in fact I don't believe at all.

(re powerful bomb) I've also included the Sa-Matra now. Also, about the Bomb - the Chmmr are in the best position to speak about the Bomb, and they say that "if you had activated it, the weapon would have annihilated your ship and everything else within five hundred kilometers". To reduce a moon-sized object to particulate dust-clouds (even a Deimos-sized moon — ah, and keep in mind that Deimos is not moon-sized, nor is Phobos) requires a lot of energy — "everything else", here, probably refers to ships and similar objects, since even asteroids are much more difficult to destroy even if they are small.

Anyway, I've recently worded it in another way, with "seem to". This should do the trick. Valaggar 20:24, 5 July 2007 (CEST)

So, according to the Chmmr, the unmodified Utwig bomb has an annihilation sphere of 500 km radius, or 1000 km diameter. Let's consider the nature of an explosion. Even assuming that this bomb only has an annihilation zone and there are no further effects from the bomb itself beyond this barrier, or that 1000km radius is not considered moon-sized, you have to take into mind the further devastating effects this bomb would have on a hunk of rock in space. In space, an explosion causes a fireball and a hail of debris that escaped vaporization. On a large solid hunk of rock, however, there is a shockwave that rips through the solid material of the rock.

Let's say you detonated the Utwig bomb on Io, a moon with an average diameter of close to 3600 km. Detonate the bomb on the surface and you've put a 500km deep hemispherical crater on Io, almost a third of the way to its center. It doesn't just stop there, however. The shockwave from that explosion rips through Io, reducing the moon to rubble. Blast a huge hole in Io first then drop the bomb down it... well that just makes it so much worse.

How about Uranus' moon Europa? Half the diameter of Io, but definitely moon-sized. And there are even smaller moons than Europa but still magnitudes larger than Phobos and Deimos. --24.117.122.78 00:53, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

The idea is that in "annihilates anything within 500 km", "anything" doesn't mean really anything; if it were anything, after all, the Bomb wouldn't have needed to be improved to be able to destroy the Sa-Matra.

Moons are definitely harder to destroy than ships, and not only due to their size but also to their mass. Plus, I'm not sure if the shockwave would be enough to vaporize the rest of Io or even Europa (the explosion would gulp a big chunk with a radius of 500 km, but the rest (of Europa's diameter of about 3000 km) would need a lot of energy to be destroyed. Small moons don't go into the equation - "moon-sized" means "having the size of a normal moon", not the size of an asteroid-sized moon. Valaggar 09:54, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

There's no such thing as a "normal moon" when it comes to size. A moon is a natural satellite, a body in orbit of a planet. Moons vary greatly in size and composition, and unless you can prove what the Utwig consider to be "moon-sized" all you are doing is conjecturing. So, considering the fact that most natural satellites (in our planetary system) have a mean diameter of less than 1000 km, anything above this is not really "normal" at all.

And about asteroid-sized, well you have the same situation. Ceres, a body of 900 km diameter, was reclassified as a dwarf planet, and was the only (discovered) asteroid to receive this reclassification. This means Ceres is abnormally large for an asteroid. Asteroids tend to be more like the size of houses to very small cities. If you placed the Utwig bomb in the center of Ceres, the entire body would be vaporized, so the Utwig bomb is definitely capable of reducing a moon-sized object to particulate dust clouds. --24.117.122.78 16:10, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

The vast majority of moons in Utwig space have a radius of at least 1600 km. And there is such a thing as a "normal moon" - a moon with a medium size.

Also, you've ignored my other argument: in "annihilates anything within 500 km", "anything" doesn't mean really anything; if it were anything, after all, the Bomb wouldn't have needed to be improved to be able to destroy the Sa-Matra.

So, what I'm saying is that, while it is possible that the Bomb can truly "reduce moon-sized objects to particulate dust clouds", it is far from certain, so we should include the possibility that it doesn't. Plus the Utwig exaggerate in the case of the Sa-Matra too (I know, they haven't seen it in action, so they're anyway not a reliable source even without exaggeration). Valaggar 17:52, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

This argument is stupid. It's already 9 sections deep. Forget I ever cared. --24.117.122.78 23:08, 9 July 2007 (CEST)