Talk:Influences and references

I've just read Roadside Picnic and I'm confused about why you regard the "Mosquito Mange" as an influence or reference. Was this something Fred and Paul said in a chat session? Is there something in Star Control II that is similar? I've thought about it and I fail to see the connection. Please enlighten. --PsiPhi 00:59, 19 Jul 2005 (CEST)

That item was actually one to be researched further (which is why I put the question marks there). I haven't read the story myself yet, but it's been mentioned in the IRC channel as a possible origin of the "mosquito mange" expression which is used in SC2 when examining the Androsynth ruins: ":I see requests to the central computer for information -- data on `reality aberrations', the `Mosquito Mange' and, er, ghosts, poltergeists, and other malevolent supernatural creatures." -- SvdB 04:23, 19 Jul 2005 (CEST)

For those who want to do some work on this page, there are two threads at the PNF boards, which have some more useful info. Be sure to verify these though, as some are plain wrong.

• http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~starcontrol/forum/index.php?topic=53.0
• http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~starcontrol/forum/index.php?topic=698.0

-- SvdB 05:32, 19 Jul 2005 (CEST)

I've been doing some work on these references (mostly the names) and have put up the ones that seem the most likely given the context and time period. Here are a few more captain names that I wasn't sure enough on though:

• Danning - Sybil Danning (mentioned on one of the PNF board threads)
• Munro - Caroline Munro, famous scream queen
• Decker - character from ST:TMP or Commodore Decker of USS Constellation in the Original Series ('The Doomsday Machine' episode)
• Graeme - from characters in the Childe Cycle by Gordon R. Dickson (I've seen the characters' names also spelled Grahame so I'm not sure)
• Alura - the only thing I found was Superman's mother. This might just be a word-play on 'Allure'
• BOOJI-1 - reference to Booji Boy of Devo fame

Are any of these reasonable enough to include on this page? Also, if there are any that I've already put up that you disagree with, we can discuss and edit as needs be - I won't take it too personally. Next on the my list is to parse the works of the authors they mention, looking for references and such. Of course if we have fans of these works, they'd be the first and best to find those. Fyzixfighter 04:59, 3 Aug 2005 (CEST)

I think Alura was Supergirl's mother, not Superman's.-- PsiPhi 11:02, 5 Aug 2005 (CEST)

You're right - I slipped up on that one. Is there any other possible Alura reference/inpsiration? Fyzixfighter 00:23, 12 Aug 2005 (CEST)

I can't find any other. I think it would be safe to add it for now. PsiPhi 03:54, 18 Aug 2005 (CEST)

My only qualms with adding this Alura reference is that it doesn't exactly fit the context. All the others are centrallish characters that tend to have certain qualities that match the Syreen image. Supergirl's mom simply seems like a flat, background character on the sidelines of the DC universe. Personally, of all the possible inspirations I've proposed I think that this one is the weakest (followed closely by penny). I did find a third potential inspiration: Princess Allura of Voltron fame. So the list of possibilities is:

• Word play on allure
• Supergirl's mother
• Princess in Voltron
• something else???

How do we decide what can reasonably be stated as the reference/influence that Paul and Fred intended anyways? When I've been looking, my criteria has been the works of the explicitly stated authors, occuring before SC2's release, well known pop culture - usually sci-fi, uniqueness, and context. I think that we've probably nailed the majority of the captain names and other influences, but what about the cases, like Alura, where it's just a decent guess. My two cents is that we continue to express such uncertainties in the edits, reserving the more definitive statements for the surer references. That said, I think I'll add the rest of these references and see what happens. -- Fyzixfighter 09:56, 18 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Wow, Voltron! I loved that show as a kid. 20 years later and I can still remember the theme song (scary). Now that you bring it up, Princess Allura fits a lot better than Supergirl's mother. She was an important character and did command one of the lions after Sven left. If Chimchim is a reference to the pet in Speed Racer and if Kimba is also a reference to a character in Japanese animation (plus the fact that the entire Shofixti culture was based on the Japanese), this does form a pattern that one of the designers loved Japanese anime. It is possible they accidentally misspelled her name. Knowing this, I would put Princess Allura far ahead of Supergirl's mother (who, as you put it, wasn't that important a character).PsiPhi 20:42, 18 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Not to be a jerk or anything, but I'm removing the slylandro etymology remark until someone can provide an external reference for it, i.e. a greek dictionary showing slyl=sky. I remember seeing this over on the Androsynth page and it's rubbed me the wrong way ever since. And don't just point me to the threads on the forum because it's always the same person making this claim, and I'd like something a little more objective. Every greek dictionary I've looked at either has ouranos or aither as the the word for sky. So if you're a proponent of this, I'll gladly eat crow and repost it if you can back it up. Fyzixfighter 06:32, 19 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Princess Bride

The page for Tanaka contains the following text: "Trivia: His opening comments of 'you killed my father, my mother, my many brothers, all six of my sisters - prepare to die' are a homage to Inigo Montoya from 'The Princess Bride'". I personally wouldn't know about this so I'm not going to add it here. But if it is verified, it would belong on this page. -- SvdB 08:54, 11 Oct 2005 (CEST)

I might be able to vouch for this, having seen this movie innumerable times while growing up (and a few more times in my "adult" years). In all honesty, I can clearly remember being reminded of this movie when I saw this part of the game (and again when I heard it). I'll make the changes here and in the Tanaka page then. The line possibly being referenced can be found in the Count Rugen article. Fyzixfighter 00:11, 12 Oct 2005 (CEST)

I wasn't suggesting removing the trivia from the Tanaka page. I'd say it would belong in both. You don't think so? — SvdB 05:07, 12 Oct 2005 (CEST)

I guess I kind of jumped the gun there, but I was thinking about removing it from the Tanaka article before your comment. My thinking was that it is a reference/influence that really isn't critical to understanding who Tanaka is and what role he plays in the game. If the trivia appears on the Tanaka page also, then we should put the other trivia found here on the corresponding pages as well. I'd say that if the trivia contributes to our understanding of the original article (like the Androsynth's pink inverted triangle insignia) then it should be included there also; but otherwise, just keep it here. As I see it, this page is for all those quirky references we enjoy finding but that don't really add to the main pages. But, as always, if you want to put it back on the Tanaka page, I won't take it personally. Fyzixfighter 22:25, 20 Oct 2005 (CEST)

Well, "be bold in editing" is the credo. I'm more interested in the motivations (so that we can come to some guidelines) then this particular case.

My view is that each page should be complete in its subject. That doesn't only include the relation between of the subject and the game, but also anything that explains how the game element came to be the way it is. That includes influences imho.

I don't consider the Ultronomicon a reference work about just the SC2 game events, but also anything that has anything to do with it.

Now if there was a lot to say about each trivia, I'd choose a link to the relevant section of a dedicated trivia page. But the trivia here are no longer than a paragraph.

—SvdB 12:30, 21 Oct 2005 (CEST)

Graeme

"Graeme is a reference to Donal Graeme, a protagonist in the Childe Cycle novels by Gordon R. Dickson. (This may also be a reference to other characters in this series with this same lastname.)" Are any of these characters pilots or captains of a space ship? Because if there's only one, it's probably safe to say that's the one the reference is about (as all people from this list are pilots/captains). — SvdB 15:44, 5 Nov 2005 (CET)

I don't know really - haven't had a chance to read or even look at the books. Maybe I'll have to do a run down to the bookstore. There are at least 4 Graeme characters (including Donal) that I have found just by looking at short book reviews and synopses on the web. Anyone know any Dickson fans? I'll keep looking and edit if I find anything along the criterion you mention. --Fyzixfighter 18:29, 5 Nov 2005 (CET)

Small update - Donal Graeme is a captain of a starship during at least part of one of the novels. Still don't know about the others though - sorry. I'll keep looking... --Fyzixfighter 10:15, 11 Nov 2005 (CET)

Constellation names

What's this with all the constellation names? Afaik, every single one of those stars actually exists. As such, they don't belong in the Ultronimocon, and certainly not on this page. They're not references any more than "Jupiter" or "fungus", or "stick" is a reference. That is, they normal real-life terms used exactly as in real life. — SvdB 23:52, 3 Dec 2005 (CET)

Not exactly. I added the list, specifically excluding the pre-existing, real-life names (as far as I could tell). About a quarter of the constellation/star names are not actual constellation/star names. A lot of them are references to astronomers or physicists, some of which also have star catalogs, star types, and planetary features named after them (Lalande, Wolf, and Zeeman for example). There are others that might have a sci-fi origin like Arriani or Saurus. And then there are those that refer to things completely unrelated to astronomy (Klystron) or with no apparent source that I can find (Lipi). I guess this arose from some of the discussion on the which form of the constellation names to use in articles. I figured that for completeness, the reference page should also tell where the more esoteric in-game constellation/star names come from. --Fyzixfighter 01:40, 4 Dec 2005 (CET)

Perhaps there are some that are made up (after all, more may be named between now and 2155). But with all the stars in the sky, I'd expect that anyone who's had anything to do with astronomy has a star or cluster named after him.

Also, stars that have latin names appear to be mentioned in the genitive when a prefix word is present. So the star system "taurus" (bull) has the star "alpha tauri" ("A of the bull"). Genitive forms usually have -i, -is or -ae (singular) or "-um", "-orum" or "-arum" (plural; "alpha geminorum" is "A of the twins") suffixes. "Lipi" may be a typo for "Lupi", "Lupus" meaning "wolf" (which is an actual constellation). — SvdB 20:39, 4 Dec 2005 (CET)

Sorry a response has been so delayed - end of the year finals. I see what you're saying, and could go back on my previous arguments and agree with taking off the names like Luyten, Wolf, and others that are part of star names/star catalogs/star types. I'll do some more research over the winter break and see if any others that might fall into this category. I'd still like to leave the others up so people can see where the names might have come from, even if it is from some astronomer not honored in stellar nomenclature like Brahe (I believe there's no star-thingy named after him). And of course, I'll continue to mull this whole issue over.

As for the names being in the genitive cases, Phoenix and I had some discussion over at Ultronomicon talk:Manual of Style#Constellation names about this, and we'd certainly like to hear you're thoughts. For example, do you know of any in-game instance when the nominative form of a latin constellation name is used? --Fyzixfighter 06:49, 15 Dec 2005 (CET)

Raynet

How important is RAYNET, the british amateur radio organization? Unless it's much bigger than I thought, or something special to FF or PR3... I don't expect it would be the source for this name.

Utwig captain names

Interesting finds Censored, but I'm not sure if those are so much references as they are coincidences, especially the Duna name (in portuguese in means a sand dune). I don't see how the Danuba river relates to the Utwig. Nestor I might be able to buy, they are kind of elderly and wise, but weren't the robots in asimov's "I, robot" books called nestors (maybe this was only in the movies)? And for Endo, the japanese author maybe if again we can relate him somehow to the utwig personality/culture. I think a stronger possibility might be that endo is a slang term for marijuana - that smoke you see on their bridge, well, that's why they're sooo sad and out of touch with reality (probably got a bad case of the munchies too). --Fyzixfighter 09:22, 9 February 2006 (CET)

Arilou captain names

Is it possible that the Arilou captain names are "words" from songs? Does anyone recognise any of those names? — SvdB 08:48, 6 March 2006 (CET)

They seem to mostly be nonsense words to me, besides "Dingdup" which sounds like "Dinged up". "Louifoui" might be from a song, although the only one I can think of that's remotely similar would be "Louie Louie". -Fadookie 09:41, 6 March 2006 (CET)

Trent

Is this possibly a reference to Trent Castanaveras (sp?) of Daniel Keys Moran's _The_Long_Run_. Primarily I'd describe him as a thief, but he's also a competent pilot.

Buenos Aires

I added the entry about how Hayes mentioning the destruction of Buenos Aires seems to be a reference to Starship Troopers. Anyone have anything else to mention, questions, etc? MasterGrazzt 03:28, 1 June 2006 (CEST)

Fyzixfighter, thanks for correcting my mistake about Buenos Aires being in Peru instead of Argentina. While I hate to invoke the old internet defense of "I was tired", that was indeed the case, as I made that correction very early in the morning during an attack of insomnia. Hopefully, I am allowed to continue adding to this wiki :-). MasterGrazzt 10:29, 3 June 2006 (CEST)

No problem. We've all done that at one point or another. Welcome to the community and please continue to add. --Fyzixfighter 21:03, 3 June 2006 (CEST)

Other places destroyed

I've added some possible references for the other places the Ur-Quan destroyed. I grabbed the ones that I could think of first or find easily. I'm assuming that all the places have some kind of importance to mankind's history given the destruction of the other places. Here they are for the talk, and some of my thoughts on them:

• blew away a kilometer of land in central Iraq

My best guess is Babel/Tower of Babel, but could be the Nameless City or Ubar (Iram of Pillars) but those are supposed to be Arabia.

• vaporized several targets in the Amazon rain forest

The only mythology/fiction thing I could come up with was El Dorado, but it might just be other as yet undiscovered cities.

• punched a big hole through the antarctic icecap to destroy something deep under the surface

This one could be a lot of things. My initial search turned up The Mountains of Madness and Campbell's Who goes there?, which was made into a movie The Thing. I'm not sure if there are some other "buried in antarctic" mythologies that existed prior to 1992 (the X-files movie came out in 1998).

• melted a broad swath of the ocean floor in the south-eastern Atlantic

I thought this was Atlantis, but the south-east location seems a bit odd to me.

Am I missing any other possible references that these might be too? --Fyzixfighter 07:32, 7 June 2006 (CEST)

Drooge

Friend in Russian is "друг" which can be transliterated as "drug". I've never guessed that the name "Drooge" is from Russian word for "friend". While translating name "Drooge" was transliterated back to Russian as "Друудж" with absolutely no meaning. Dmit

Music

I think the Androsynth fanfare sounds an awful lot like the song "Mongoloid" by Devo, or potentially another Devo song since plenty of them have similar riffs. For comparison, see http://andre.facadecomputer.com/mongoloid_vs_androsynth.ogg (I'd love to upload it here but it won't let me). Andrevan 01:55, 13 March 2007 (CET)

I'm not familiar with Devo, but from what I see on Wikipedia, their matching outfits and kitch sci-fi style do say Androsynth to me. Together with the "Booji-1" Androsynth captain, this music similarity is probably not a coincidence. What kind of problem do you have uploading? Any error messages? — SvdB 02:38, 13 March 2007 (CET)

Yeah, I've never really seen or heard Devo, but from what I knew of them, the Androsynth match pretty well. The shiny glasses, 4 of them in a cockpit (I'm pretty sure Devo had 4 members), and the "ditty" for when they win a combat just screams Devo, if you ask me. — [[Gaeamil 02:17, 13 March 2007 (MST)

Thiotimoline

I read the Wikipedia article on Thiotimoline, and I don't see very much similarities, other than time travel of information being involved. That's not enough to list it here imho. Is there anything else in the actual Thiotimoline essays that connects it with the Metachron? — SvdB 03:08, 2 April 2007 (CEST)

Oh frell, I'm sorry for the delay in response - I didn't see this until just now. The similarity in my mind is that the reaction happens prior to the adding of water, and is a gradual process that can be measured to determine when water will be added (from the first essay). I've recently re-read the first and third essays/stories, but am still searching for the second where I seem to recall that someone was using the endochronic properties to predict if rocket launches would be successful. The third essay goes a little bit more into detail talking about creating devices out of endochronic polymers, but focuses on using them for space/time-travel. Thiotimoline and the metachron are the only scifi devices that I know of that predict their own destruction/dissolution so that's why I originally connected the two and inserted the comment. But if the idea is more prevalent than I thought, or the argument still doesn't cut it without a specific reference, go ahead and remove it and I'll add it back in when/if I find something more definitive. --Fyzixfighter 03:04, 11 April 2007 (CEST)

The Pootworm and Descartes

Okay, this one got me. Granted I'm no philosophy major, but I'm not a backwater hick. So can someone please explain in what ways the Pootworm dialog is a play on Descartes' "Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum"? For reference, here is the Pootworm dialog:

"Welcome to our home stars. We are the Pkunk. Pkunk we are. Seekers of the deepest truths, askers of interesting and significant questions. Even now a question of great transcendental significance comes unbidden to our minds. Who are you and what do you want? Do not be frightened. We are powerful creatures, yes but we could not hurt you anymore than we could squish the helpless Pootworm. We love the Pootworm. We are one with the Pootworm. We are one with you. Of course you realize that this means you are one with the Pootworm. Rejoice!! To be one with the Pootworm is to be alive, and why not be alive? Is that not what living is for?"

I could be blind, but I don't see where "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am" is referenced in there. --Fyzixfighter 07:48, 14 April 2007 (CEST)

"We are one with the Pootworm. We are one with you. Ergo, you are one with the Pootworm. Ergo, you are [alive]"

There are some similarities, as you see. It's another apparently superfluous tentative to prove that we exist (by using some more particular affirmations). Valaggar 10:53, 14 April 2007 (CEST)

The link with Decartes is indirect. The Pootworm dialog connects with "proof of existence", and only via that do you go to "Decartes". That's one step too many, and hence, considering that there are no other connections, too little to be included here. — SvdB 19:21, 19 April 2007 (CEST)

ZFP

Yes, if you try hard enough, you can make up some vague connections. But this page is not about what associations you can come up with (don't even think about it; such a page has no place in the Ultronomicon); it is about things that had influenced TFB and other materials that TFB refered to.

If this applied to the Zoq/Frog connection, that means that TFB must have had the same connection in imagery that we've determined by poll to be very far-fetched. (Note that it's more likely that the race design came before the artwork). Even for a page in which some "maybe"s are acceptable, this is just too far "out there".

The "Fot"-".fot file" connection is even more far-fetched. There are only that many three-letter words, neither is really "unnecessary", there are no other similarities, and Windows 3.1 was only just out when TFB were finishing up SC2, at which time they likely had better things to do than look at the internals of Windows. — SvdB 18:16, 19 April 2007 (CEST)

Ah, oops (the Fot thingy). About the ZoqFrog I can only say one thing: *FRUMPLE!!!*. And "Nnnnnnnngah! It is *dancing*!". Valaggar 18:20, 19 April 2007 (CEST)

Stars and constellation influences

Fyzixfighter removed the Lipi and Vitalis references (Lipi=Lipi Marketing, Vitalis=Saint Vitalis), arguing that they aren't related to science or sci-fi. However, unless a more sci(-fi) reference is found, we can stick with this. After all, who said that FF&PR3 weren't allowed to be influenced by non-sci(-fi) sources?! Valaggar 08:48, 26 May 2007 (CEST)

You are absolutely right that we don't know exactly what FF&PR3 were influenced by, but we can make a good guess based on statements they've made, by the context of the game itself, and similarities to other known influences. The purpose of this page as I see is not to document every coincidence of shared names, but to catalog those for which an argument can be made why they are likely candidates and not happy coincidences nor the first thing that pops up when you google/wikipedia the term. That's my full problem with Lipi and Vitalis. The Vitalis saints and Lipi marketing have nothing to do with science, stars, math, science fiction - in other words, they don't fit the pattern. They look like things that just have the same name. It's a much more extraordinary claim that those are the references/influences for those names because they don't fit the pattern. In the choice between using those references or nothing at all (if nothing can be found), I disagree with you and I'd rather go with nothing. Leaving an entry blank does no harm - it's alright to say that we don't know something; but to claim a coincidence is a possibility simply because the name is or sounds the same is shoddy research and devalues this list.

I'd say keep searching on the Lipi and Vitalis fronts - it was only today that I found a "Saurus" reference that I like and that I think fits the context, and I've been thinking about these lists off and on for awhile now. Be patient. Coincidences do happen so do the research to make sure the names fit. --Fyzixfighter 10:05, 26 May 2007 (CEST)

Ship Designs

I'm not the one who made the initial reference to the Ur-Quan Dreadnought bearing more than a passing resemblance to the Battlestar Galactica, but I do agree with it. Namely, the low profile, long main body, distinctive "head" shape, pods (flight pods on the Galactica, warp pods on the Dreadnought) separated from the main body by "nacelles," a single engine cluster at the end of the rear body and the ability to launch fighters. These are certainly not all features solely distinctive to the Galactica, but they are in tandem. I'm honestly not *too* bothered by the edit by Valaggar, but I personally think the resemblence is far too uncanny for there not to have been a design inspiration there. --24.117.122.78 17:37, 27 June 2007 (CEST)

Yeah, feel free to revert it, unless someone does not agree. I wasn't in a good mood when I made the edit... and you know what sort of things stem from such a mood. I apologize. Valaggar 20:17, 27 June 2007 (CEST)

Changed, but not reverted. There certainly are a lot of differences, still, so I worded it similarly to how the human cruiser entry is worded. --24.117.122.78 20:42, 27 June 2007 (CEST)

**HYUIVBHJHG**

A possible origin of the word "**HYUIVBHJHG**" (suggested here on the forum) would be that the letters are chosen in such a way that, on a Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, they make a 42:

I know it's too far-fetched, but it's interesting nonetheless.

I'm not really seeing the 42 in that. The leftmost cluster kind of looks like a reverse 4, and if the second cluster could look like a 2 if that right most dot (V) where closer (like on the M). I highly doubt that it's intentional, though I'd be interested in how Death 999 thought it looked like a 42 since I'm not seeing it immediately. However, if you have to stare at it cross-eyed, standing on your head during a grand alignment of the planets in order to see it then I think it's better left off the "Influences and references" page. --Fyzixfighter 18:34, 23 August 2007 (CEST)

Even if it looked more like a 42, there are many keyboard layouts and you can also translate the 42 figure to the right or left, obtaining other letter combinations. Plus, those letters are really close to each other on a standard keyboard, leading me to suspect that it was just random key pressing. Valaggar 18:40, 23 August 2007 (CEST)

Tossing into the furnace

Quote from the 1990 game Loom, from Mr. Stoke at the Blacksmiths' Guild (Mr. Stoke is angry because the player — who's actually impersonating someone else, but that's beside the point — didn't bring the firewood he asked for):

If your father wasn't the Foreman, I'd toss YOU in the furnace.

Any chance this inspired (intentionally or not) the Druuge's punishment by tossing into the furnace? Valaggar 15:24, 12 January 2008 (CET)